The meaning of 論, when pronunced as lún, has already been listed in the answer by @user-487 in another question. However, none of those meaning seems appropriate in the following famous 朝中措 by 元好問


“通‘倫’,事物的條理、秩序” sounds acceptable, but still makes me feel strange. Is there any reliable sources that clarify the meaning of 論 here?

3 Answers 3


論量/论量 ㄌㄨㄣˋ ㄌㄧㄤˊ/ lùn liáng


  1. 評論、計較。

  2. 猶思量。

此處“枉論量”是指“沒什麼好談論計較的”。枉, 白費 (useless);論,談論 (to talk about, to argue);量,較量 (to compete with)。

根據《康熙字典》:論 《玉篇》力困切,《廣韻》《集韻》《韻會》《正韻》盧困切;同崘,去聲,義同。

  • Thanks. I'm now wondering that whether 論 was ever pronunced 去聲 in ancient ages as it is today...Maybe 論 was always pronunced 平聲 in ancient ages, but only very few usages are kept now. Nov 30, 2016 at 14:21

論量:論議是非。(to discuss, to comment on things / on rightness)

(source) So, the original sentence


might translate as

It is useless to guess the heaven's intention at that time; it is unfortunate that happy things are forgotten.

Very word to word:

The then-emotion, and heaven's meaning, in vain it is to discuss and measure. Happy things --- it is painful --- to be forgotten.

has also the meaning to the full extent, strongly, and orignal meaning of is bending (becomes: wrong, misjudge, etc.). is a position-filler to invert syntax, because 樂事 is "being forgotten".

My advice is not to be too serious about ancient poems and lyrics, since they are imposed by extremely strict phonetic restrictions of that tune. There are, frequently, inverted syntax, omitted words, fragment sentence, for the form's sake.

What does it mean? I don't know either. But upon looking at the whole lyrics:



The last sentence is clear: a certain country has fallen / declined.

Then I have checked, out of curiosity, Yuan Haowen's biography, you see several things.

Born at the height of the Jin dynasty (1115–1234), he experienced the social unrest and war at the decline of the dynasty. He fled to Henan with his mother when the Jin regime moved their capital.

Since in ancient literature, the speaker is often the poet, we can probably say, Yuan Haowen is lamenting the demise of the Jin government, inherited by Mongolians.


go to http://sou-yun.com/Query.aspx?type=poem1&id=256008 press論量 It is clear is that site.

  • Thanks, so should the meaning be “思量”? It seems that the question arises from the variation of pronunciation with the change of time. 論量 should pronunce lún liáng here, while in 《汉语大词典》 we find it lùn liàng, which makes me confused. Nov 30, 2016 at 13:38
  • Those pronunciation showed in 汉语大词典 is totally different from 元好問's age. So considering modern pronunciation does not make much sense.
    – ttsazooc
    Nov 30, 2016 at 13:45
  • This is exactly what I mean. Nov 30, 2016 at 13:52

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