Pinyin of 車 in idioms

Question

In Cantonese, 車 has two pronunciations: [ce1] and [geoi1].

In Mandarin, 車 also has two different pinyin: [che1] and [ju1].

[ce1] corresponds to [che1].

[geoi1] corresponds to [ju1].

In most idioms, 車 is pronounced as [geoi1] in Cantonese. For example: 閉門造車, 車水馬龍, 前車可鑒, 螳臂擋車, 學富五車 and 舟車勞頓. All have the character 車 pronounced as [geoi1].

*杯水車薪 is an exception with 車 pronounced as [ce1] (車 is a classifier here. The above mentioned idioms all have 車 as a noun).

It confused me when my friend wrote: "two of the Mainland dictionaries (including 現代漢語詞典) use [che1] to correspond [geoi1]" and list 閉門造車 as [bi4 men2 zao4 che1] instead of [bi4 men2 zao4 ju1], which correctly corresponds to [geoi1] in Cantonese.

Edit:

After reading some forums, apparently dictionaries in Mainland China, are contradicting each others, with some listed 'che1' and others listed 'ju1' for all the idioms I mentioned. It means the opinions on how to pronounce 車 in idioms are not unified in Mainland China.

With that said, the question remains. "Is it acceptable to pronounce 車 in the idioms I listed as [che1] in Mainland China?" I mean, if I said: "bi4 men2 zao4 che1" would some people correct me and tell me that I should pronounce 車 as 'ju1' instead? Most importantly, which one do teachers teach to students?

Answer 1

You can safely prounouce '车' as [che1] in all idioms above in mainland China. Actually if you don't do it, someone might get confused since it seems we only pronounce it as [ju1] when refering the name of a Chinese Chess piece.

Answer 2

Check out the dictionary for 車.

The Mandarin pronunciation ju1 of 車 only refers to the Chinese chess piece. Even in Cantonese, it is incorrect to use [geoi1] in idioms. 閉門造車, 車水馬龍, 前車可鑒, 螳臂擋車, 學富五車 and 舟車勞頓, are all supposed to be [che1].

Nevertheless, the Cantonese interchangeable use of both [geoi1] and [che1] is somewhat "habitual", sometimes it is just meant to make fun of it, or make it sound extravagantly literate. You can't change it, so just follow the local custom.

Other [che1] in Cantonese: 車床，赛車，車站,車禍,車牌,車道,車票,車費.

You can tease Cantonese-speaking people by pronouncing the above as [geoi1], clarify it as [che1] for fun.

A Yahoo answer shows some collective info here:

《莊子．徐无鬼》「乘日之車」；《經典釋文》「元嘉本車作居」

《詩經．北風》「惠而好我，携手同車。」；阜陽漢簡《詩經》作「惠而好我，携手同居。」

《禮記．禮運》「天子以德為車」鄭注：「車或為居」

《爾雅．釋草》「望，乘車」；《經典釋文》作「乘居。居本亦作車，音同」

由此可見，古人把「居」和「車」偶要混淆的，所以劉熙說「居」為古音較接近事實。我見一些學者如王力和參考文章的著者，把車字的上古音擬為，聲母取「居」，韻母則近於「舍」。據本人所知，不少字音都是聲母韻母個別分途的。

Answer 3

I would consider the opinion that say "The Mandarin pronunciation ju1 of 車 only refers to the Chinese chess piece. Even in Cantonese, it is incorrect to use [geoi1] in idioms. 閉門造車, 車水馬龍, 前車可鑒, 螳臂擋車, 學富五車 and 舟車勞頓, are all supposed to be [che1]." in the other answer as biased. It is just wrong to dictate how others speak their native language and anything you perceive as "wrong" actually have some rationale behind them. Stop trying to tell people how their language should be spoken because "some old literature say it should be this way". Language would change. (This should be a comment instead but I don't have enough rep to write a comment say I have to write an answer instead)

Answer 4

In conversations, it is true that, for idioms, people favor ju1. Actually, there may not be a consensus. Try look up 教育部重編國語辭典 yourself. It has ce1 for 螳臂當車, but ju1 for 杯水車薪, contrary to your suggestions!